Ethnography - Interview #2 Transcription LEGEND--> :: I == Interviewer ::E == Interviewee I: Thank you for your time. Uhm... I just wanted to get started by asking you what your occupation is. E: I am a Cybersecurity Consultant but I primarily deal with penetration testing at the moment. I: Okay that's cool. How long have you been doing that for? E: I've been... in cybersecurity for about... 8 years. But pen testing has been a year. Prior to that, I was involved in the blue-team side of things which is more defense. I: Okay. Which do you prefer? E: Ah! That's a great question. At this moment, I can see myself doing pen testing for a very long time. I enjoy it. It's a steep learning curve, it's a little bit different from blue teaming even though some aspects of it are the same but uh... so far I'm a very big of pen testing. I: Oh okay. So could you walk me through a day of being a pen tester? E: Oh, for sure! So as far as my specific project and the clients that I work with. At the moment we are... we-- my team and I. We get applications to test. Right now we're doing web apps, and we get specific web applications to test and we go through following the OWASP Top10, uhm... to find as many vulnerabilities as we can to help secure the client's applications going forward. We offer recommendations and after they have fixed the vulnerabilities or the findings, we go back to find out if they are actually gone. So my day consists of a little bit of all of that. I: Oh okay. So do you look for any vulnerabilities outside of the OWASP Top10? E: Oh yeah! Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean... it's kind of the mindset that you need some guardrails. You're free to... you're free to go off and explore but uhm... Just to... This is what we're going to aim towards and if we find anything else then that's just icing on the cake. I: Oh, okay. Cool. Sounds like an interesting job. E: Appreciate it! I: So when was the last time you did something for the first time? E: When is the last time I did something for the first time? Ah jeez! I just started boxing! Hahaha I: Oh yeah? E: Uhm... My brother is here and he's big into boxing and uh... He just started training me. And uh... before I went out with my friends and done kickboxing and did some punching but it never felt organized and it never felt like... there's proper form involved but my brother is really drilling that into my head and... he knows his stuff so it's been... a tremendous workout and it's... I know it's for the first time because my shoulders are barking! I: Yeah, uhm... boxing is really tough on the shoulder. E: Yeahahaha I: So is he... Is he in amateur or is he competing as well? E: No but he's working towards that. I: Oh okay. E: He's worked with a few amateurs and... he's just never had the opportunity... level up if you will. So, that's something that he's aiming towards. And... yeah, he's knows his stuff, man. So, I'm excited to work with him. I'm excited to see his future as well. I: Oh okay. Do you consider yourself to be a cup half-full or cup-half empty kind of person? E: Half... full. I think that the world goes in waves and sometimes it's... ahh.. it's going more full and sometimes it's going low. I just... I just say whatever the cup is, man... haha. And I just try to deal with whatever I have. I: Oh okay, so you call it how you see it at the time. E: Exactly! Yup yup! I: okay. So do you travel often? E: Yeah. Pre-panemic, I was big on traveling. Uhm. Prior to the pandemic, though. That... 2019, I decided to take a break from traveling to really focus on my finances. But for... I dunno, 10 years before that, uhm... I was traveling a lot for work. I: Oh, did you enjoy that? E: I did. I had some of... some of my fondest memories are from traveling. And not just for work-- by myself, as well. I met one of my best friends traveling to Europe by happenstance and... some of the best times that I remember are from my time living and working traveling back and forth to Minnesota... which is... a surprising city, I tell people that. They're like, 'Minnesota!?', but Minnesota was one of the best times... best periods of my life. I: Okay. Sounds like an interesting city. E: It is! I liked it... I liked it a lot. It's just different but it's very cool in its own way. I: oh okay, so how has the pandemic affected your traveling habits? E: There's been no traveling at all. Uhm... part of what I do with consulting... consultants travel a lot and... that equates to miles and frequent flier miles and hotel points. And uh... that has all been wiped out, completely. Uh, so ... Uhm, of course we've just been staying at home and I've been at home and not doing much traveling at all. But for the first time I did travel to the east coast a few weeks ago to see some family and uh... that was nice. It was a bit different from the traveling that I usually do. I: So has uhm...what has changed since your last visit to the east coast? E: Well everyone seems a lot more conscience,... conscious because of COVID and uh the... so I took two airlines, right? One airline we were separated. A seat was divided us by each passenger... and the aisle and then seat then a passenger. And uhm... another airline I took, the plane was completely packed. So just seeing that, it seems that not everything is uhm... it's not consistent if you will but I do see people saying 'wear your mask'; The boarding is spaced out but getting off the plane is not. People are still piling into the aisle, trying to get their luggage first. And it's like 'what was the point of us being separated in the first place?'. Besides that, it's pretty much the same. I just see less people in the terminals at the airport. I: So how do you feel about that? Seeing less people in the terminals? Would you prefer to... do you rather have... would you rather have some space while you're in there? E: Oh, well that goes back to the cup-half full, half-empty question. Either way it's fine with me. I have traveled at airports where it's jampacked-- I like people watching so it's just more entertainment... and then when it's not jam-packed, I just chill, listen to a podcast and just vibe out and chill until it's time to board my flight. Then I try to board last anyway, to avoid all the madness that goes on with people trying to get to their seats. I: Yeah. E: So that's never a problem for me at the airport in either situation. I: Oh. Cool. So how do you feel about wearing masks since you just mentioned it? E: About wearing masks? I don't have a problem with it... I... I used to. We talked about traveling a bit. I used to live in Japan, and in Japan the culture is all mask. And even if people are not sick, they wear mask-- but specially when they're sick, they wear mask. And... I did that in Japan, it wasn't a problem. Now that masks are being asked of us here I didn't see it as an issue. I: Right. So what other cultural difference did you notice while you were in Japan? E: The cultural differences are many... I can't even put it on one specific thing. I listen to this podcast by Dan Carlin called 'Hardcore History', and it was just talking about the history of Japan and Japan is unique in that it has an untarnished history in a way, right? Like, that culture just... there was no colonialism, nothing like that. Japan is just Japan and you see that in everyday walks of life. They are just uniquely Japanese. So to say what's different? Almost everything, really. I mean, of course they've been westernized. Western culture is all powerful, err, pop culture, fashion, things like that. But even with that construct of modernity... modernity, it's still uniquely Japan. I: That's interesting. I've never been there, you know... I've gotta inquire. E: Once things open up, I will take you on a tour to Japan and I think... I think you will have the time of your life, I really do! I: Okay, so have you encountered anyone enforcing you to wear a mask? E: Anyone forcing me to wear a mask? I: Or anyone forcing you to wear a mask or yeah, enforcing at all... E: I wouldn't say forcing. No one has forced me to do anything. I've gotten... so a few months ago at the height of the pandemic. I know we're at another height. When things were just bubbling up, I went running outside with my wife and uh... It's difficult to run with a mask on. And I... me and my wife had our mask down while we were running and this guy runs by us with a mask and... he says, "Put on your mask!", and I'm like... I just tell him, "You might get a heatstroke from running with your mask, bro." And uh... that was really the only altercation, everyone else has been chill. Uh, I live in Los Angeles, and for the most part people wear a mark. They have it around their chin but if you're walking by, people life it up. There are some people that don't rock masks but like in any society you're going to have the... extreme of one side and extreme of the other side. I'm sure there are people that wear mask to bed. So probably... I see the extremes all the time. I: I saw a recent mugshot of Bill Cosby and he has a mask tan-line on his face. E: Haha! He has a masked tan-line!? Haha! That man has been wearing his mask! I: Definitely. I: So has social media impacted your opinions regarding the pandemic? E: I... don't use a lot of social media, well, I use a lot of Reddit for my news... I: Okay. E: So when you said social media, I thought of Facebook, and Instagram, and Snapchat. That tells you where my mind is at as far as social media but Reddit is also social media and I see news articles on there uhm... about the politics of things and that's what it seems like the pandemic has become-- very politicized but it hasn't really changed my opinion. I figured that... from the get-go... I look at what has happened in China-- at least reported what happened in China. This thing was facing... not even China, even Korea-- right? Where people just bit the bullet and they sacrificed... some of that of course is forced sacrifice on behalf of the government in China... uhm... but... They were able to get their numbers down, even Japan where I spoke about; They have that mask culture and their numbers are down. And when you hear of spikes, it's like 100 people in Tokyo. And I feel like this was an opportunity for America to band together and try to accomplish something together but we've failed to do that... uhm... hopefully it's not too late but... Sorry I just went off on a rant there. I: I appreciate your input. It's good feedback. So, do you feel as though there should be or there can be an alternative for people in America to wear masks? An alternative to wearing masks? E: Dut... I... It would be nice if there was. I don't know. I don't know of any. I do hacking for a living, right? So I try to listen to what scientists say-- experts... it... I don't rock my mask all the time. I just went outside to the park and I was walking wit' my brother. My mask was down most of the time... and... when I'm walking by somebody or when I see somebody further up, I put my mask on. Uhm... If there was an alternative; I see people with like... glass shields around their face, like they put it over their forehead. I: Yeah... E: Like, the band. I don't know if that helps but if that helps, that's an alternative. Umm... I'm well... I'm welcome to any alternative that means helping people out, giving people a little bit of comfort, even if it's only psychological. I... I welcome all of that. I: That's nice of you. E: Thanks. I: Do you feel as though your health is at risk due to COVID-19? E: At first, when it first started, I felt that it was because it's a respiratory... it causes issues with respiration... I hope I said that right. I: Yeah. E: And... I... Have a history of asthma and uhm... I would prefer not to get COVID, sooo... I try to be as cautious as possible. At the very beginning I was very cautious, afraid to go anywhere but as I... we mentioned before, I even went traveling recently. And uhm... so there's a certain level of I... don't want to get it, of course but I'm not as afraid as I was before. I: Okay... I understand that. Are you concerned about anyone in your household? E: In my household... My wife! I don't want her to get sick at all... just... I've heard stories of people being completely healthy and then passing away or... on the outside, they were completely healthy or looked healthy... so with... I don't want to risk it with anyone, bro-- none of my friends, not with you... I don't want anyone to get it if they don't have to... I: I understand. You know, I hear of the uhm... I didn't just hear but I read a couple of articles regarding smokers and COVID... Some smokers can... these... by these reports, smokers are a little bit more resistant to it-- E: No way! I: Yeah, I'm not positive how solid it is-- E: Yeah-- I: so we can't go based on that... You know, I've noticed that anyone I know who smokes... they are... they haven't gotten sick. E: Oh! A big fact! That's interesting. I'm intrigued to find out what the science is behind that... because There's something that... that they say could kill people... is something that could end up protecting people from COVID... that would be... I: Indeed. I mean, it's a form of a poison and it's all poison-- E: Nahhhhhhh-- I: Cigarettes, alcohol... E: Which poison is going... which poison is stronger I guess, that's an interesting one. I: Did COVID-19 have any effect on your hygienic practices? E: Yeahhh... Yeah... Since this is anonymous... I... I did go... I mean, throughout the pandemic, there were days where I was just sitting and home and I went two or three days without showering. But I wasn't like itchy or anything like that, you know what I mean? It's just... I wasn't doing anything... and that started to show around the waistline as well. I: Oh! E: Uhm... but... yeah. I'm mean... there were periods of time during the lockdown where we were really locked down; Where no one was leaving-- where I went a few days without taking a shower. I: Yeah... Has the pandemic had a positive effect or negative effect on your life? E: Net positive... Uh, at the beginning I talked about in 2019 I... I stopped traveling because of finances. I: Yeah... E: Uh... Stopping from traveling... even... like traveling not even globally but back and forth to New York or traveling around the country, which is something I wanted to do, I wanted to budget it in for 2020... But COVID just completely stopped that, and in doing so, all that money that I was going to save... Uh, going to use, excuse me, for travel, ending up going towards... towards my... my... my bills! And any... any money that I owed: loans... and I was able to knock off a ridiculous amount of money this year on my debt. And, uh... it's tragic but it's one of those things, you... it's the half cup half-empty again, right? It's the... The situation that we are dealt with at the time... and how are you going to use it to your advantage? How are you going to use it to better yourself and... instead of spending money on stuff I've just decided to put as much money as I can toward my bills. My wife complains about how I walk around lookin' like a bum all the time but... my money just went towards bills, bro. And I'm... I'm so relieved and free at the time of us talking. I: Good, so you uh... In financial freedom, you don't care about how you look it's more about how you feel. E: Exactly! Exactly! And the lockdown helped out with that, too. I: Aiight. When I worked at New York Life years ago... the people who had the most money... because we would do financial needs analysis with these individuals... and... the ones with the most money wore the least amount of name brand. E: There it is! There it is! What are we putting our value in? I mean... I-I... I don't know if this is a fact but I hear that Bill Gates still wears the same beat up old sneakers and he's a billionaire, you know what I mean? I: It's possible but I'm sure he's got some vices, right? E: Exactly! I: So, you know... everything that's presented is not the whole truth. E: Boom! That's it. That's also it. That's a big fact. As far as I'm concerned, though. Trust. I... I love fashion. I don't know man, I grew up in New York, and in New York fashion is just... people are... people are very fashionable in New York, at least where I went to sch... where I grew up, right? And... uhm... up to... Even now, fashion is still a big part of my life and I still want to express myself more... of... in a fashion point of view but I wanted to prioritize the getting out of debt first... and then after I'm out of debt, I can budget my money, not use my credit cards on that fashion and uh... build up my wardrobe afterwards... feel a lot more free. I: Sounds like a sound agenda! E: It's nothin'... nothin' too crazy planned, just not lookin' like a bum, like my wife says. I: So where do you consider yourself to be on the political scale from authoritarian to libertarian? E: What was that, say it again. I: Where do you consider yourself to be on the political scale from authoritarian to libertarian? E: Mmm... So I was... was... I am going to butcher this quote. I was just listening to uh... watching a video on Epictetus... Which was a... he was a philosopher... I: Okay... E: And something he said is to not to get yourself involved with the... the politics... and while of course I have beliefs, and I would say it leans more liberal... I-I... I grew up as I said in... in New York and it's a very liberal city... it's very diverse... but as I get older... uhm... where I'm able to formulate thoughts of my own and do the research... I... I find myself all over the map... Uhm... in different thoughts for different thing. Like... I know uhm... Gun Control is a big thing... and I am... I'm on the board for Gun Control but I think people should have the right to have their gun... Their guns! It's... it's one of the... one of those deals where it's a... a genie out of the bottle, I think that's the saying, where it's already out there. There's no way you're putting guns back... but if it's something sensible then we ca... we can make that work but... even taxes and... this is... this is a tricky question... If it's something sensible we can... we could make that work, but... Even uhm, taxes and... This... This is a tricky question; I'm... I'm... stumbling around it because I'm still trying to come to grips with. It's not like my beliefs are set in stone... they're evolving everyday. So I can talk to you about something... just like how you told me about the cigarettes, it's like... c'mon I wouldn't'a even thought of that. But if someone comes to me with: Hey, this is a... a better mode of thinking and I do the research and I agree with the points of it, my attitude towards things change. I'm not set in stone on one political branch or umbrella or what have you. So... Long story short, I'm all over the place on the map when it comes to politics, but... I: Uh, it's definitely fine. I mean, that's fine. It was... what you said is a part of my following question which is: where on the political spectrum from liberal to conservative do you see yourself? Uh... The first question being uh... authoritarian to libertarian would be... do you prefer more rules or less rules? Uhm... libertarian is kind of like... you're at liberty, you're li... you're at liberty to do whatever you... You're at liberty to do whatever you want to do within the confines of the local laws... the laws of the land. E: Yeah. I: So authoritarian is one who just... they're just very strict. They want to lay down rules and live by rules. E: Mmm... You've got a whole lot of good questions today. I was just talking to my brother about human nature... Uh... I feel that it's easy for humans to go towards desires of the flesh... and, um... It takes a certain level of training to try to... to fight that and I think that desire is what causes things like war, and greed, and a lot of the bad stuff that happens. It's people wanting to be powerful; They're wanting to be rich. I think freedom is great but I also believe that if we are not in... if we don't have certain regulations from stopping certain people from wanting... Ah, this is another tricky one... If we're not able to confine... to have a level playing ground for everyone... certain people will take advantage of the level playing ground with the lack of rules and end up doing horrendous things... And you see it in companies all the time when there... is no... When there are no rules... Uhm, you think of Enron. You think of Wells Fargo with how they're doing subprime mortgage loans. People are greedy and I worry that if there are no rules then that greed will overshadow the good that other people can do. But at the same time, I don't want to be overburdened by rules. There's like a middleground somewhere that I'd like us to be at where we are all operating under a set... set structure. It's kind of like boxing, right? As I said, I'm just getting into it. There are certain rules in boxing-- you don't bite somebody's ear off, right? That's not-- that's not boxing. So you follow these rules but then... you try your best and... that's where I'm at as far as... like a... libertarian. I want the world to be less rules and for us to operate freely. Unfortunately some people are super greedy, and super corrupt, and that calls for some rules. So it's... it's somewhere in the middle... somewhere... somewhere on on that spectrum. I: Do you think that those rules... they are in respect for the person who abides by them or the person who does not. E: Repeat that again. I: Do you... do you believe the rules that are in place or would be in place in an authoritarian society, would those be abided by from the behavior of the average citizen who abides by the rules or would it be for the person who breaks the rules, because a person who breaks the rules is gonna break the rules anyway. E: Break the rules regardless... That... People that break the rules are going to break the rules regardless. Ah... We talked on... We touched on it a little bit... There are all types of people in society... And... I don't necessarily know if like... Ehh... And I don't necessarily know if... Ehh... Like... Somen... Just tryin' to gather my thoughts here... I: It's all good. Take your time. E: Appreciate it... So I... I always go back to sports. I just talked about boxing... I'm thinkin' 'bout basketball. People that break the rules-- they are usually punished by it. Uh, it's kinda like somethin'... I'll touch on something that I know... that I know... With cybersecurity... If you're in the hospital space, there are HIPAA rules. And if a hospital is not following those HIPAA rules which are for the benefit of the clients-- benefit of the customers, the patients... to protect their identity, they get in a lot of trouble... and I think that's fair. I think it's... it's fair to have rules that protect other people... not to empower anybody else but to protect people. And as long as the rules are doing that, I think those are just rules to live by. And as... If we can have punishments for people who are not following those rules, like, no you can't continue to run a business if you're taking advantage of people. If you're... feeding the flesh as I talked about-- you're being greedy. You should be punished and you should have a label that says, 'Hey, this person is greedy! Don't operate with them!'. I think those are rules that we can use but not rules that are constrictive and stop people's freedoms. Authoritarianism or... ah... ahh... I don't even know if I said that right. I don't want that at all... That's not something I am... in favor of. I: I understand. Do you think that we'll find a cure for COVID-19 soon? E: A cure... I don't know... I really don't. I just learned about the... flu vaccine... and when I was younger I thought that the flu vaccine was them putting the flu into you, and then your body fights and gets stronger than that but I've just since learned the the flu has different strains, it's never just one flu. And what the vaccine is, is it's anti-bodies or pathogens or I forgot the exact term for what they think it's gonna look like but no one of course knows exactly what the flu vaccine is. What the flu is-- is made up of... So sometimes the vaccine works and protects you all throughout the flu season and sometimes it protects you a little bit and sometimes it... it... you get messed up from the flu entirely. Uhm... I say that to to say that I don't think there will be a cure if this is anything like the flu, maybe it will be something like a vaccine and I do believe we have brilliant minds in this world. We are able to build super sonic nuclear weapons that... we have caused tremendous harm to each other based off of our science. I think if we band together we can do great good, and we've done great good in history. To answer your question, I do believe that we will find a way around this. And uhm... it'll be a great achievement in humanity. I: Okay! I appreciate your optimism. E: I try to be. Either I'm optimistic and I press on or I let the negativity weigh me down and crush me and I... I don't want to be crushed, so... Yeah. I: I can empathize. That's why I work out. E: That's why we vibe so well together, bro. I: Do believe that legality equals morality? E: Legality and morality... So... pardon my ignorance. So... Legality, what's that? Define that and define morality for me? I: So legality is... the legal system... Something like that... Uhm. Do you believe that the law dictates morality... and they... Do you believe that they are equal? E: I don't. If your question is whether the law can dictate moral... morality? I... I don't believe so. I have the mind that everything is from within. I think that's how our communities should be built up. Is... you work on yourself and you work on your moral compass and you try to make yourself a better person for society. Society can't make you a better person for them so you build yourself up and then you try to help build up your family. You try to help build up your family. You try to help build up your community. It works from the inside out, not the outside in. So, laws can't make me moral, I have to make myself moral. I: Understood. That's a good explanation. E: Thank you. I: Have you uhm... noticed government restrictions during this pandemic? E: Yeah! I live in uhm... California, as I said, Los Angeles... and Gavin Newsome has been getting a lot of flack. Some people saying that he overstepped his powers-- I think he was uh, sued for that. But as far as... my... the inconveniencing me, and overstepping his powers which has affected me... It's just really not being able to play basketball... has been the biggest thing where I wanna at least shoot around and there's no hoops anywhere because they took all the rims down. But other than that, it's been understandable, like social distance, at first you couldn't go anywhere as people were trying to figure this out then supermarkets and stores and businesses started opening back up again. Then uh, when things are sk... skyrocketing as they are, some businesses close. And it sucks for business and I feel terrible for business owners... uhm... for me, personally, it hasn't been too restrictive. Uhm, but for other people, I'm sure it has been. I: So then you haven't felt as though the local government has been limiting your freedom? E: My freedom to do things like play basketball, yeah... I-I... as I said, I was able to travel; Me and my wife just went to Yosemite, and we went to the national park and-- I mean, that's the government, and I was able to enjoy myself and have a good time... I... I personally have not been affected by the government limiting my freedoms... I-I haven't seen it personally. I'm sure it... I'm sure it happens though, that's not saying that's not the case but me, personally-- it hasn't been an issue. I: So then do you agree with the safety guidelines that've been proposed by local governments? E: The safety guideli... I'm one gonna say that I read all of the safety guidelines... When things started off, I remember social distancing, not even wearing a mask because that's not what they were telling us at first. But uh... social distancing and washing your hands. Those were the two things that I took from... from it and uhm, try not to intermingle too much, and I think those are reasonable. I know I have a lot of friends that got COVID because they went to people's houses and... uhm, not necessarily parties but just meeting up with their peoples... and uhm, yeah so I understand it. I understand it but at the same time it can be restrictive but it hasn't been restrictive for me. I: So what do you think some of the positive aspects of the safety guidelines are? E: People washing their hands more often. I think uh... you touched on hygienic before. Even when I wasn't showering, I was still washing my hands. You know what I mean? I think that's something in the psyche of a lot of people. It's something in the psyche of a lot of kids because they're living through this and maybe that's something that uh... that lives on in American culture going forward. Just being a little bit more clean... wash your hands instead of using the bathroom and just walking away... Uh, people are more conscious with that I think. That would be a benefit for... theee... for the country. I: What do you think some of the negative aspects of the safety guidelines are? E: Uh... theee... My nephew is in New York. And they... are not able to... it's not even the safety guidelines, necessarily though... What I was going to say is that he's not really able to go out and play with kids. But actually, that is it, that is! He can't... He can't uh... intermingle... and like... that causes... that's a detriment to children I think children should be out playing, and running around, and meeting other people and developing their social skills and unfortunately that's... that's suffering at the moment. I: Do you think that the government should have a say in your health? E: Uhhh... should have a say in my health? That goes back to my mindset on morality... Uh... it all comes from inside... If you... If you are... It's... It's also tricky though because... it comes from the inside where you have to focus on yourself and if you are able to realize that you aren't as healthy as you can be and you want to be healthier, you have to do that on your own. But from working in a hospital-- I worked in a hospital while going through college and there are so many people that are unhealthy. And... I think about communities that I grew up in where there's a fast-food join on every corner. And if the government that's supposed to protect us but they are thinking about their own best interests where their citizens... they should have a focus on health. But being able to tell us what to do and tell us that we have to something, I don't agree with that but performing guide... giving us... uh... best, not opinions but studies, saying, 'this is what's best for you', uhm and... this will be a benefit to not only you but to your neighborhood and to the country-- I think that's fair but as long as no one is telling me that I need to eat this and I need to eat that... that's taking it ahh... a few steps too far. I: Yeah, I wouldn't like them telling me what to do or what to eat either... especially what to eat... E: Yeah, yeah, exactly! I: I want some phổ right about now. Uhm... so what is your definition of freedom? E: Freedom! Oh! What's my definition of freedom!? Oof... When I... when I think of freedom... it's funny, man! Cuz... 'cuz as I said, I like to travel... I've been to countries in Europe, I've been to countries in Asia, I have been to countries in the Caribbean... and I've never felt as free as I do in America which is wild to me because I've walked down the street on the east coast in a neighborhood where I lived in and I have been pulled over by the police for fitting a description. But even with that... even with that, I've never felt as free as I do here in America... but even with that, there is discrimination... but there's also a certain level of, 'If I wanted to, I could do anything that I set my mind to.'. I'm able to travel around without any... any problems. I can be whatever I want to be. Yes, it might be difficult but there is a way for me to be anything I want to be in this country-- at least that's how I feel. And... for a lot of countries that I've been to, I didn't feel that. Granted I didn't grow up there but it just feels a little bit different there... We have things to work on in this country, I touched on some of them, but freedom is that-- being able to express myself without uhm... feeling as if I'm going to be-- I don't want to say persecuted but you might be persecuted... but without... I just put myself in a little bit of a hole, there... but I feel a little bit more free here that I'm able to do the things that I want to do without too much repercussion here... I mean, I think about Malcom X; Martin Luther King; people that have expressed their views and have been parsecu... persecuted because of it and that's something that we're still struggling with in this country but as far as my day to day freedoms, I've never felt that anywhere than I do in America. I: So do you feel as though the government should limit people's freedom in the interest of the community-- whatever those interests might be? E: Oh, that's a great question! Uhm... Well... Hahhhh... Yes, I do... This is so tricky, du... dude! Because it's not this or that-- it's not black or white. Uhm... in the situation like COVID, before we knew anything or how serious it was for them to say, 'Hey, you need to stay at home until we figure this out!'. I think that's fair and it's justifiable because we're not scientists... we don't know what's... what is really happening... we don't have years of research or... we don't have degrees in science, first, to understand everything that is going on. So for them to say hey, not to say hey, you have to do this and I don't think that's what happened either because... I saw people walking outside, out and about after there was a declaration but if there... there are police officers reprimanding you and forcing you back inside, I think that's a serious problem and a serious abuse of our freedoms and I don't want that but if... back to the diets, if they're recommending that, 'Hey for the good of our community, for the good of our country, please stay inside. Uhm... we need you do to this so we could uh... try to beat this and figure out what is happening.' I-I'm on board with that but the same thing with the diet, I don't think they should tell me what I should do but if they're able to put it in a way that, 'Hey, we're working together here.', Uhm, let's work together and try to accomplish something. I think I'm more in-line with that way of thinking. I: Okay, do you think that should be more so the responsibility of the people or the government itself? E: It's... it's... It's what I said with sports, there are guidelines in place, rules to follow and the people are the ones that are... it's up to them to live morally and look within themselves and follow those rules as long as its good for society. There are rules that are bad for society and then it takes people like Martin Luther King and Malcom X, uhm... to speak up, right? Then say, 'Hey, this is not the way things should be!', right? So I'm 100% on board with that but if the rules make sense for the benefit of our society, then I have no problem with following those. I: Okay. What should the government involve... What should the involvement the government involvement be during a pandemic? E: Kinda like what... Tehhh... We were touching on earlier, I mean just now... with... they should provide guidelines and... uhm... help us... help navigate us through whatever maze we find ourselves in. They shouldn't be dictating to us because it's not a dictatorship. Uhm... what... what the best avenue is to get out of this maze and uh... I think that's about it... perform... provide guidelines-- wash your hands, social distance, and uhm... 'This is what we think is best, please follow it and once again, if we're able to do this together, we can make it through any of this hardships. We can make it through this hardship and be proud of ourselves like you see in countries like South Korea, like in Japan, or in Taiwan-- especially in Taiwan.', I'm saying... a lot of those Asian countries because they did it. They did the damn thing! Annnd... I feel like we could've done that... the government worked with the people. I think that's what it is, I think that's where my mindset it... the government works with the people, not the government dictates to the people. If you workin' with the people I think that's the way society is best served. I: Sounds good to me. I mean, it takes the effort of two to tango... E: Ohhh! That's it! That's it. It can't just be the government makin' laws and stuff, the people need to act as well. And... the people need to speak up, too. I: So what should be the limit of the government's reach-- ideally? E: I think the government should only be there to protect people. Protect the weak and the people who can't protect themselves. My... my idea of an ideal government is the government being the machine that helps people make it from proverty to the... the middle class, where they're able to get on their own feet. And granted not everyone is going to be able to do that but for the people that can't do that, are mentally ill, are people that come back from war and they can't... they have PTSD, I mean more mental... mental issues, right? Are people who can't take care of themselves. The government should be an entity that helps our weak and most vulnerable and that should be it. And I think that captures everything that I said-- if you're a company and you're taking advantage of the weak and vulnerable... If you're hiring people and giving them no money at all then the government should step in and be like, 'Yo, you can't do that. You can't treat our fellow man like that.', and if the government then I'm 100% on board with the government. What I see now is that the government is trying to do a little bit of too much with everything and once again, I'm not some scholar. It's just from my experience and what I've seen with the government. It has potential to do great for its people if it gets out of its own way and stops being so corrupt. I: Understand... I can definitely uh... empathize with the notion. E: Yeah. I: Well, do you think... Since you mentioned the government taking care of the weak and you know, the unfortunate or misfortunate, even... Do you think that the payment protection and stimulus checks were necessary? E: Were necessary? Yeah... Uhm... I wish that the government did more and maybe it's not stimulus checks, or maybe it is stimulus checks. Once again, I'm a dummy so I don't know what the best solution was but it seemed like the government... Excuse me... It's a little cold where I'm at, like 64 degrees and... I know people would scoff at that but I'm not used to it. Uhm... if the government did something, I think that would've been great but it seems like they didn't do anything-- just sitting on their hands, complaining, and arguing, and I hope it shows people that the government is not interested in you at the moment. And that's why it takes two to tango, as you said... We need to get a little bit more involved because when it comes to passing uhhh... tax cuts for big companies, they're quick for that, bro! When it comes to go to war, like-- 'Where's the pen and paper, let me sign this thing!'. But when it comes to helping out its citizens that are in need... the government seems to have severe... like... they have issues! And something needs to change. Uhm... so I don't think they did much of anything to be fair but that check helped out and they had unemployment benefits that helped people end up leaving their jobs and just collecting unemployment benefits but you're not... you're not fixing any problems-- you're putting a bandage on things. I-I... I feel that that's what the government does, uhm, it's always rushing to put a bandage on something. It's never proactive, always reactive. I: That, too... Do you feel that it ultimately did or did not contribute to the individual citizen's wellbeing? E: Did it con... I don't... I don't know... If I was gonna speak for everybody uhm... if I was gonna say yeah, I think it helped. I know people that were unemployed and they were able to make ends meet for a little bit with the... unemployment check. But I also know people that struggled to get the unemployment check and they struggled to get themselves out of more serious problems. So I think the government could've done a little bit more or been more tact in their strategy for handling this. I don't know what that solution is but it just seems that what they did was not the best solution. Sure... Sure it helped people, of course. Uhm, but in my opinion, they could've done a little bit better to help more of its... more of their people... I: So now... If the shoe was on the other foot, table was turned or however you want to phrase it... Say you were a government official-- a state government official. What are the changes you would make to the COVID-19 guidelines? E: I don't know... I don't know what the guidelines are... I would have to look 'em up... I think we went about this wrong as far as, 'Hey!'... At first it was don't wear a mask... and I think they said that because they didn't want masks to go out, to be in short supply kind of like toilet paper. so... uhm... that would've been the first thing, like... 'Wear a mask!' And, even if masks are not-- I don't know the science behind it and particles going through the holes... but it does help. Flu season is down, and in uhm... countries like Japan, and Taiwan, and South Korea numbers are down. You're not going to be able to save everything. But uhm, if it does a little bit of help like, 'Why not?'. But I... I think the messaging at the beginning was wrong... I think uhm... yeah, I think that's mostly it. That's the only thing I would've changed at the beginning and this goes back to my original point of saying that this is something that we can do together, as one country, as one neighborhood-- whatever... whatever it is. We are a collective but we're still one United States of America. And uhm... if it was pushed to us that 'Hey, we're doing this together.', maybe I'm just too positive with my thinking but I think that would've gone a long way-- when people have a sacrifice that they're working towards. I: Sounds good to me. So in light of the whole situation with the pandemic, what are some of your most positive experiences? E: My positive experiences... Uhm... with the pandemic, I touched on my finances. Something else I've been... I've been working on. This is me, personally... studying French-- I've had the time to do that, and... ya know... it seems that at the height of the pandemic, people were a little bit kinder... at least where I was. You couldn't see people smile and I think people realized that so they're going out of their way to wave, give you a head-nod-- something which is something that is common in the Black community. I'm getting a lot more-- getting a lot of head-nods... And uhm... it just seemed like people are a lot more friendly and I think that was a big positive. I: Oh, okay. Well, I've got only a couple more... Or... three more questions to ask you-- the final three: E: Yeah, hit me. I: What is your age? E: 34. I: What's your sex? E: Male. I: And your race? E: Black © Orville Dillon, Jr.; © NOP.Computer -- 2023 If you notice any improper citations or lack of then please inform me and the error will be adjusted accordingly. Thank you! Feel free to contact me